Gender Identity 'Disorder'

Marianas Wench · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: Gender Identity 'Disorder'

I found out today that in the near future, an employee at my workplace will be showing up to work looking opposite of their birth gender. I do not know who it is, though I am curious, naturally.

In the handout employees were given, it made mention of certain rules and rights following their transition, in regards to how they would like to interact with coworkers on a day-to-day basis. The only thing that really caught me off-guard was how the gender issue was referred to as 'Gender Identity Disorder'. To me, that term somehow came off as politically incorrect, and it seemed somehow offensive to tag it as a disorder.

Personally, I think it shouldn't be viewed as a disorder. I see nothing wrong with the situation; It's just someone who feels they were born into the wrong gender, and they're correcting it. Why should it be viewed as a disorder, in that case? That word just gives off this vibe that says it's wrong for it to be the way it is. (Make sense? I hope so... I'm not sure how to explain that last point).

Anyhow, I'm proud for this person, that they were able to come to this point and they're obviously confident in themselves to allow others to know about their situation. I won't lie... if/when I find out who it is, if I didn't like this person before (well, there's a few people I have a certain distaste for at work), I won't hate them any less. But them having gone through with this, it won't make me hate them any more. Sexual identity shouldn't play a role in the person's personality. And I'm sure there's sadly a few people at work who may target whomever it is based on this at any rate.

Okay, I'm rambling. Quite honestly, if you understood that, congrats. Cause for some reason, as hard as I tried to make that make sense, I just couldn't get it right.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this so-called 'disorder'? How would you deal with this, if it were happen to someone you knew in this situation? What do you think about 'gender confusion', etc etc? Whatever your thoughts are, it's up for debate, everyone's got a different p.o.v. on this.
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DeadDisco · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject:

Well for starters I think it's great that the person is secure enough to be able to do such a drastic thing and even have in announced.
If one of my co-workers were to get a gender change I'm sure at first I would see them differently. I'm not saying that I'd treat them with more or less respect than I already did, I just have a feeling I'd be more cautious and senstive towards them. Kind of like when someone loses someone, you tend to be very careful around that person. I have a feeling that is how I would first react. I'm sure it would just take some time to get used to the whole idea of that person no longer being what they always were to me.
And for the whole "Gender Confusion Disorder" bit.. I don't think that title really fits it. I don't think it's confusion necessarily. If anything, I'd say it's more of an understanding. They're understanding their own body better and are choosing to change it to what they feel is more natural? Technically I guess it is a disorder since the definition of disorder is a disturbance of normal functioning. And I guess if there was actual hormonal problems and things like that, then that makes sense.
I have more to say about this but I'm just heading out. I'll edit in more later.
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boarderlinefrenzy · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject:

So I'm confused, not by anything you explaine, because you did an excelent job, but is this person just physically different looking than what they are or are they also attracted to the same person as the opposite sex and/or are they changeing their gender so they are what they look like?

Yeah, I think it is a little offensive to call it a gender identity disorder.

Is the person a male who appeard female or a female who appears male? Can't the person also alter his or her self just with clothes and the way he or she presents him or herself?
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Marianas Wench · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject:

^*I didn't totally want to say this, but* The handout said they'd be appearing as a female. It didn't say whether or not it was going to be a pre- or post-op thing.

And, sorry, I'm not quite sure what you meant by are they attracted to the same person as the opposite sex. Do you mean that if it's a male transitioning to a female and they liked females to begin with then are they lesbian? Under those terms, yes, it would be considered that.
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DeadDisco · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject:

^So then you're saying that they'd be attracted to the whatever gender they were originally attracted to?
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Marianas Wench · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject:

^Yeah. For example, if you're a man who's transitioning into a woman... while a man, if you were attracted to other men, mentally you'd be straight (if you already felt inside you were a woman) but physically you'd be gay. While if you were already attracted to other women (in pre-op), mentally you may be considered a lesbian, while physically being straight.

It's not where if you change into a woman, you become attracted to men if you were originally attracted to women in the first place (who knows, maybe hormones could make a change in that, but I doubt it). The only thing that really changes, as far as what I know, is your physical state. Emotional 'settings' (for lack of a better term) are already in check... it's only the physical that the individual feels needs changing.
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DeadDisco · Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:02 pm Post subject:

^Okay, that's what I thought it was but I wanted to just make sure.

I completely lost my train of thought that I was going with in my beginning post and it's bugging me that I can't think of what I wanted to say!
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alexisgeek · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:45 am Post subject:

This is an excellent topic.

The reason why it's called a "Disorder" is because so that those people with GID are allowed to be treated (meaning, are allowed to get perscriptions for hormones, insurance - sometimes - will pay for operations and drugs, etc).

For example, homosexuality is a not a disorder... as stated by the DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) because it's not "treatable". And for those people who are gay, but deny it and want to get treated for it, they'll have to do it by their own means.

You're both right for thinking that it's offensive for GID to be considered a disorder.... but since it is completely beneficial to the trans community, nobody's fighting against it.

To clear up the differences between gender, sex, and sexuality:

Sex in terms of a biological form, is basically determined by your genitals... or at least, what your genitals appear to be by all external appearnances. Technically, there are three known sexes: Male, Female, Intersex. Males have penises and testes, Females have vulvas, ovaries, vaginas and uteruses, and Intersex have a combination of both.

Sexuality is usually your sexual orientation. Whether you're attracted to genetic-males (born with male genitalia), genetic-females (born with female genitalia), men (people who identify as being men), women (people who identify as being women), trans (generally, people who present themselves of the opposite sex that they were born as), queer (generally anybody who doesn't necessarily fit in with the male-female binary), etc.
There are MANY different types of sexual orientations: heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, androsexual, queer, questioning... the list goes on.

Gender is how you're socialized in the world. As they say, "Sex is what's between your legs, gender is what's between your ears". Gender is purely what you feel... regardless of how you're expected to be. Unfortunately, your gender is "pre-determined" when you're born.

If your parents see that you are female, you will then (usually) be treated as a girl growing up. Be told to wear certain clothes, be told to stay clean, be told to sit a certain way, or be a certain way.

If your parents see that your sex is male, then you will be treated as a boy growing up. Not allowed to wear dresses because boys don't wear dresses. Boys are "allowed" to be dirty and be aggressive. etc.

However, for reasons still unknown (though there is much research happening)... socialization isn't always the end-all, be-all of one's gender. The funny thing about "Gender" is that most of it is entirely based on gender stereotypes. So even if a male has been socialized as a guy, there are still many, many, many things that he enjoys/likes/feels that he has identified as being primarily "girl" interests. Making him think that he more closely identifies with being a girl, than a guy. In many cases, many people strongly feel that they would be happy for their physical body to change to match what's in their head.

For most people, sex and gender are basically the same thing. They think gender and sex are interchangeable words when its referring to a person... when it's not... especially when it comes to transpeople. Also just to make clear, a person's sexual orientation is completely seperate from their sex (duh) and their gender.
There are also many different types of Gender: cis-male, cis-female, male, female, agender, bigender, androgyne, genderqueer, genderfucked, questioning, multiple, androgynous, etc...

Take for example a male (maybe your coworker) who is born with male genitalia, and although he has been SOCIALIAZED as a boy growing up, he would feel from a very young age that he identifies with being more like a girl. This entire time, ze (btw, "ze" is one of many gender-neutral pronouns - I just use the "ze, zey" set because I like the letter "Z") likes/is attracted to women (I specifically say "Women" and not "girls" because I define "women" and "females" as people who have been born with female genitalia, and "girls" as people who have either been socialized or identify with being a girl), with his male sex, this would make him heterosexual. But if ze transitions to being female (post-op) he would be lesbian.

Same thing with female-to-males. Born with Female genitalia, is attracted to males - heterosexual. Transitions to being male, still attracted to males - homosexual.

However, this all gets much more confusing if a genderqueer person is attracted to all sexes, but only certain types of people of those sexes. Such people could be all lesbian, gay, straight, pansexual, bisexual, or whatever you can think of.

Hm. I typed wayyy more than I had originally intended. I hope I made sense!

[edit]
Oh yeah, hormones do not change a person's sexual orientation. Only physical changes and some emotional changes. My knowledge for hormones really only go as far as male-to-female... I don't know much about the other way around (though I do know some).

Male-to-female transsexuals usually begin with anti-androgens, and the start taking progesterone and estrogen. Physically, these hormones decreases testosterone levels, stops/reduces facial hair growth, stops male pattern baldness, decreases overall muscle mass, redistributes fat to hips, thighs, and upper arms, makes the skin softer and more sensitive, and causes breast growth... oh and decreases the number of erections/lowers sperm count (causing either partial or complete sterility). Emotionally/Physically it causes an increase in mood swings but also a generally calmer disposition. Most MtF's find themselves having an easier time to focus/concentrate on tasks. Unfortunately, hormones do not change their voice... that would take hundreds (and maybe thousands) of dollar of voice training to change. Many (not all) MtFs have Sexual Reassignment Surgery (SRS) to "complete" their transition.

For Female-To-Male transsexuals.... as far as I know... testosterone will increase upper body muscle mass, cause facial hair growth, and deepen the voice a bit. They would have to get a masectomy to remove breasts (duh) and most want Chest Reconstructive Surgery to have a more "masculine" chest.

@boarderline:
"Can't the person also alter his or her self just with clothes and the way he or she presents him or herself?"
No. Because they will never feel "complete". Take for example... yourself. You are born female (I assume), you identify as being a girl (I assume), you have the physical characteristics of being female (I assume), and you are happy with all of that (For sake of explanation, I'm ignoring what you don't like about yourself - if anything... and there shouldn't be). Now imagine you don't have a female voice, but a male one. Take away your breasts. Imagine yourself having a penis. Now imagine that you look masculine (manly face). You may be dressing like a girl (though if you're not sucessively passing as a girl, you're getting A LOT of "looks" from people in public)... but you aren't female. Would you be honestly be happy with yourself? Would you love or hate yourself?

This is how many trans people feel. Many are suicidal because of it.

Marianas Wench · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:59 am Post subject:

^That really cleared a lot of stuff up, thanks for posting that. Most of it I knew of, but didn't know how to explain it. And thanks for explaining the 'disorder' thing as well... now I understand why it's referred to as such.

I thought of this earlier, but forgot to mention it... Earlier this week, I was talking with some people at work (don't quite remember who, not that it matters), and the topic of female/male washrooms came about. It was going off a conversation about androgynous people, and how others would react if someone who was as such went into either bathroom and you couldn't tell what sex they were. (As in, were they going into the wrong bathroom for kicks and whatnot). Yes, yes, realizing how immature it is to take as a serious subject, we were just joking around, but the conversation did have its serious points. Then someone mentioned "Oh, but what if you're transsexual, then what bathroom would you use", so I went "Well, that's a good point. Pre-op, it's hard to tell if you're to use the female or male washroom". Then someone said "They could just claim to be the opposite sex so they could go into that washroom", so I went "I dunno. Make a transsexual/androgynous bathroom???". Please keep in mind it was meant jokingly, and the majority of us (as far as I know) don't actually mean that in a serious sense.

It just reminded me because.... I mean, what one would they use? I'm guessing it would be with what gender they identify with mentally. And it was just odd timing for that conversation because no one found out until after that point.
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DeadDisco · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:08 am Post subject:

^I would think they'd go into whatever one was appropriate for their genetalia. As in, if they had a penis they would go ino the males, and if they had a vagina and ovaries they'd go into the female washroom.
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boarderlinefrenzy · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject:

@alexisgeek: right, that was what I was trying to clarify, how "serious" (not the word, I'm looking for, but you get it) this was. How much this went into. Am I clear, now. No, I realize you can't just change things like that, and I feel truly sorry for that person.

btw, this may sound really stupid, but you guys say "washroom"?
we say restroom or bathroom.
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Marianas Wench · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject:

^Yeah, "washroom". You've never heard it referred to as that? I use either 'washroom' or 'bathroom', moreso the first one. And the occasional 'restroom'... Sorry, I'm going more off-topic =]
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alexisgeek · Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: (

The washroom/bathroom/restroom (I use all three words interchangeably, if there's a technical term that actually applies to each of them someone let me know ;)_orange

) is a fairly ongoing debate among the trans/genderqueer community. Since toilets are the same no matter what your sex is, it actually doesn't really matter what bathroom you're in. Even females could use urinals if they wanted to (there are Packers you can buy online for that). So therefore, bathrooms are entirely gender-based and not sex-based.

I think it really depends on what you feel comfortable doing. If a male is passable as a woman, then she should be allowed to use the women's bathroom (especially not use the men's to avoid harassment). If a female is passable as a man, then he should be allowed to use the men's bathroom. For andro/intersex people, they just choose whatever bathroom they feel comfortable going to. I have some andro(gynous)/genderqueer friends... they say that they just go to whichever is better (closer or smelling - girls' bathrooms are usually cleaner compared to guys'). For transsexuals, they transitioned to their desired sex for a reason... so they would probably use the bathroom that they prefer.

Even though there is no law against a person of one sex using the bathroom intended for the opposite sex, there ARE gender-neutral bathrooms available to the public. Most of these bathrooms, share space with the handicapped people (it makes me wonder sometimes - is this supposed to liken genderqueer/trans people with the handicapped? I know it isn't supposed to.. but it sure does feel like it sometimes). However, there are some places that actually create gender-neutral bathrooms that individuals can use. Take for example, the Milestones' in Yaletown (in Vancouver) recently renovated. Instead of having one large bathroom for men, and one large bathroom for women... they now have 8 or 10 individual bathrooms all displaying the male/female sign on the door.

I hope that clears up some questions/confusion.

boarderlinefrenzy · Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject:

Okay, so what's the differnce between "gender" and "sex"

I remember my brother getting mad at people for asking "What's your gender?" because he would say gender is a noun or somthing, (noun is not it, I can't remember the explaination).

And he may not be right... so what is the diffence and when do you use which one for which?

I'm truley facisnated. This is a wonderful topic.
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Marianas Wench · Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject:

Going on what alexisgeek said, "Sex is what's between your legs, Gender is what's between your ears", basically 'sex' is if you're physically male or female, and 'gender' is if you're intellectually male or female. (alexisgeek, please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of it).

So 'sex' refers to what body you're born with, whether male or female organs (focusing on the physical). 'Gender' refers to your internal feelings, whether you feel/think more like a male or female (focusing on the mental). So someone whose sex is female may actually refer to their gender as 'male', if they feel they were born into the 'wrong' sex.

P.S.: alexisgeek, I apologize if I'm butchering this explanation... You're just so bloody knowledgeable (and can put into words better than myself) =]
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I think you're just so pleasant, I would like you for my own...

boarderlinefrenzy · Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject:

So, does this person with "Gender ID Disorder" just "look" like the opposite sex (but the "inbetween the legs" is what they really are) or is it someone that is simply "homosexual", or is it more complicated than "homosexual" is it also thinking like the opposite sex?

I think that was confusing.
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Marianas Wench · Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject:

Homosexuality doesn't apply under Gender Identity Disorder. GID is where the mental and physical aspects of your personal being don't match up as female/female or male/male. So, for example, you're physically female but you think of yourself as a male... Some people try to 'fix' that by taking hormones to match their physical (sex) with their mental (gender). Some may only take hormones to change some physical aspects, while others decide they'd like sex reassignment surgery so they fully 'become' female or male physically.

Homosexuals are happy with the sex they've got, they're just attracted to the same sex they are. People with GID are unhappy with their birth sex, and would feel more comfortable as the opposite sex (it's not so much to do with homosexuality).
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boarderlinefrenzy · Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:17 pm Post subject:

^thank you for clearing that up so I don't confuse the two. I don't like being ignorant about being ignorant, espeically if it can get me into trouble.
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Nothing Better · Supermodel Joined: 31 Dec 2006 Posts: 830 Smiles: +16 428

I thought this was a really interesting topic to read up on, thanks to all that contributed.

A few of my friends are really homophobic/transphobic, if that's a term. My friend's brother underwent therapy to stop being homosexual, at 15! I don't know much about what happened, but I do know that he had sentences he had to repeat to himself whenever he had "urges". What do you all think about this kind of therapy?

I really don't like the idea of it, especially when you're so young. You're usually figuring out your sexuality at that time, so it doesn't make sense to undergo therapy to prevent something like that. Plus, I really don't think you can change someone's sexuality completely, it would still be there under all the mantras you said to convince yourself you are straight. I do think therapy to help you accept your sexuality is good though, because I know that some people are often rejected by their friends, family and/or religion because of who they love (which seems crazy to me, wouldn't these people want you to be happy?)

Marianas Wench · Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject:

I think that therapy to try to 'correct' someone's homosexuality is a total load of crap, and it's sad that someone should make them go through that in the first place. I honestly don't believe it works, and therapists who do this corrective therapy need a life, because they're pathetic. It's like being straight, and having someone tell you over-and-over again "You're gay. You're not straight. You have to be gay"... only you know how you feel, and others can't try to convince you otherwise.

Ugh, such a waste of time! And then there's some families who disown their kids/siblings/etc because they 'refuse' to be hetero. *Rolls eyes* Real mature.
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I think you're just so pleasant, I would like you for my own...

alexisgeek · Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject:

^^^^Wench, you've done a pretty good job interpreting what I've said and explained it in a way that other people could understand.

Though, I would like to make it clear that a person's sexuality, their sex, and their gender are completely seperate things. It's pretty much like comparing apples to oranges to bananas.

i.e. Your example of someone who's homosexual is happy with their sex. Sex in terms of the physical act? Yes, they're probably happy with it ;)_orange

... but not always. There are some Transgendered people (though not necessarily all) who are homosexual, but are not happy with their own sex (physical body) and would prefer to be of the opposite sex.

As for "fixing" one's homosexuality. That's total bullcrap. There's medical evidence to prove that homosexuality is biological - that people are born homosexual. Of course, this doesn't say that ALL homosexuals are born that way, but many are. Yes, therapy in general does work... but usually only for psychological disorders. But therapy for homosexuality? It's like therapy for an asian person who doesn't want to be asian. They can ignore it for sometime... but it's just going to come back sooner or later. Hmm... bad example.
Okay, it's like someone who loves eating chocolate. They try to deny that they love chocolate, so they try to not eat it for the longest time... years go by and suddenly, out of the blue, they have the urge to eat some chocolate.... so they then end up eating about 10 pounds worth all in one night. After that night, they feel dirty.. so they put if off again... only a few years later, the urge comes back even worse. Eventualy, they'll have to just accept that they just love eating chocolate... and just eat the damn thing Razz

@Nothing Better: Transphobic is a real term, you're correct.

As a sidenote, not ALL people with GID want to take hormones or want to pass as the opposite sex or whatever. Many are generally happy with who they are and it's just something that is a part of them... they just don't really identify with the gender binary (male/female genders).